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He first began playing in small backroom clubs in the Picadilly Circus area of London, and then served a long apprenticeship playing in the numerous 'silent' movie cinemas across London. Young Harry was soon playing with all sorts of dance bands, small, large, good ones and sometimes really bad ones. He then joined up with Sid Phillips and his band who were shortly leaving on an extended tour of Europe, Africa and Italy. In 1933, Harry, having had enough of working for other band leaders, formed an orchestra of his own. He made a test recording for DECCA, who were impressed, and Harry and his band recorded seven sides on the Panachord label. Shortly after, The Crystalate Company asked him to lay down eight tracks for their Broadcast label. Under the pseudonym of "Joe Taub and his Melodians", Harry produced thirty-eight tracks for them, plus another two under the name of the "Connecticut Collegians". In time, Leader called on the services of many established musicians such as Freddy Gardner, Norrie Paramor, Archie Slavin, George Chisholm, Oscar Grasso, Sam Browne, Chick Henderson and Ronnie Hill to name but a few. 1940 saw Harry and his band playing at the 'Hammersmith Palaise de Danse', and from this laid the foundations for his future career. During the late 1950s, Harry teamed up with singer Terry Parsons and went on a nationwide tour before subsequently deciding to retire in Brighton. Later, Terry Parsons also changed his name, to Matt Monroe, and became equally as famous as Harry Leader. Leader is also known to have recorded for the Peacock Label, under the name of 'The Pall Mall Players'. The 'A' side had "Something Came and Got Me In The Spring" and the 'B' side was "Jog Along". The band was also seen in a late 1930s British film release. In private correspondence, Ms. Rachael Henson has advised that :
Even during the early days, 1967-1970, the band was playing a Glenn Miller style of music. In 1968, the band had a fairly steady position at the Mersey Hotel. There was a three shilling entrance fee and patrons could listen or dance. By 1969, the band was playing to capacity audiences every Teusday evening, with folks coming from Newcastle, Birmingham and even from London. They were playing in the second floor Ballroom, while the famous Irish Tenor Joseph Locke was singing in the first floor cabaret. It was here that TV producer John Duncan and TV star Les Dawson heard the SLO. Later, Syd's band would back Les in all of his 'Sez Les' shows on Yorkshire Television , from 1970 -'73. Granada TV also featured the SLO in a saturday night spectacular, live from the Mersey Hotel. Denis Peacock, a Yorkshire businessman, and early fan of the SLO, promoted a number of the band's concert appearances, the first being at the Royal Victoria Hotel Sheffield, in March 1969, and then a number of other concerts at venues mostly in the North. Another promoter, and ardent fan, was Jim Crawshaw. The band recorded their first album on Sept. 23 and 25, 1969. Another album followed early on in 1970. On November 17. 1969, Impressario Robert Paterson presented the SLO to a sell out crowd at London's famed Royal Festival Hall on the 25th anniversary of Glenn Miller's disappearance, and to another sell out crowd at the Royal Albert Hall in the band's second London appearance the following Februrary. Tony Wild saw the band at the Royal Albert, and was so impressed that, in 1970, he sponsored the band at the Queensway Hall in Dunstable, - the first of many such Wild SLO productions in 1970. In 1970, the band consisted of:
After leading the Syd Lawrence Orchestra for a solid 25 years, Syd finally retired and turned the band over to Chris Dean, - the band then being billed as 'Chris Dean and the Syd Lawrence Orchestra'. The 1997 SLO consisted of:
During 1997 and 1998, various groups of sidemen and vocalists of the band toured on separate 'gigs' calling themselves "The Wandering Minstrels" As a very young child, Levy would pay a halfpenny for a lesson on the violin,and by age 10 he was competent enough to play with Charlie Austin's Juvenile Troupe. In 1916, at age 23, he developed an interest in music for films, and was a pioneer in composing new music especially for films, rather than adapting popular tunes of the day. This music would be played in theatres as accompaniment to the Silent FIlm up on the screen. In 1923, he led a band at the Pavillion at Shepard's Bush which was heard on Remote Broadcast. During his 1928 visit to the United States, he had the opportunity to see some of the very earliest "Talkies" - sound films. In 1929, on returning to the U.K., he found Gaumont-British converting their Silent film "High Treason" into a "Talkie". He was asked to write the score, and becae their Musical Director. By the time Gaumont-British closed in the late '30s, he had composed and scored hundreds of films for the studio including, the successful Jessie Matthews musicals. He then went on to work for MGM scoring and playing the music for "The Citadel" and for "Goodbye Mr. Chips" that starred Greer Garson and Robert Donat. He next worked for 20th Century Fox on the Gracie Fields film "Shipyard Sally". During WW2, he was Musical Director for Gainsborough (later becoming the Rank Organization), but left in 1948 to join Associated British Pathe. For ABP, he worked on such films as 'The Glass Mountain'; 'The Hasty Heart'; 'The Dancing Years', and a remake of 'The Two Companions'. He also worked on 'Happy Go Lucky' and 'Let's Be Happy', - a pair of musicals starring Vera Ellen. While well known for his film work, Levy was also heard, starting in 1956, on his popular radio show 'Music From the Movies'. His Gaumont-British Symphony Orchestra recorded for both H.M.V. and for Columbia Records. His Concert Orchestra recorded for Decca. In 1947, he was in a show with Arthur Tracey (June 25, 1899 - Oct. 15, 1997), famed as the "the Street Singer" in his American films and recordings. At the time of his death, he was working on the "James Bond 007" film 'Moonraker'. Sydney Lipton was a classically-trained violinist whose first professional job was with the Murray Hedges Band at Edinburgh Palais. However, most of his career as a band musician was spent with Billy Cotton's Band from 1925 to 1931 and Sydney's distinctive violin can be heard on this band's recordings as well as on a few Ambrose sides of 1927. Tired of touring around theaters and ballrooms all over the UK, Sydney left the Cotton band and soon after formed his first dance band at the Royal Palace Hotel in London's Kensington. In the middle of 1932 he took his band into the Grosvenor House Hotel in Park Lane where he was resident until 1967, apart from a break of five years between 1941 and 1946 when he joined the Royal Artillery and the Royal Signals serving as an officer and then captain. Sydney Lipton's Orchestra became part of the fixtures and fittings of the Grosvenor House over a remarkable four decades. Syd Lipton's Grosvenor House Band first recorded for Zonophone in July 1932 and his early recordings are vigorously rhythmic. He also recorded on Sterno Records under the pseudonym of "Sydney Raymond and his Commanders", but these performances were not as polished as those issued under his own name. When his Zonophone/Regal Zonophone contract came to an end at the beginning of 1933 he continued with Sterno, recording under his own name and produced a large number of sides until he transferred to the Decca label in 1935. By this time the emphasis was on melody but with Decca he made surprisingly few records between '35 and 1938 although he was broadcasting regularly and many maintain that it was his finest Orchestra with such top musicians as Max Goldberg(trumpet), Ted Heath(trombone), George Evans(tenor sax and arranger), Harry Hayes (clarinet and alto sax) and Billy Munn (pianist and arranger). The legendary Al Bowlly recorded four titles with the band on January 13th,1938. From 1939 until the end of 1940 the Lipton Orchestra appeared regularly on Columbia records, by which time Sydney's daughter Celia had joined the band. The story goes that Celia had successfully auditioned for Jack Harris, another bandleader of renown, and when her father found out he said that if she wanted to be a singer then it had better be with his band. Celia made some excellent recordings with her father, notably "BOOM!" (Col.FB.2349) and "GET INTO THE SPIRIT OF SPRING" (Col.FB.2432) amongst many others. Celia also recorded with the bands of Lew Stone and Jack Hylton and later made a successful career for herself in theatre, both in London and Broadway. In more recent times, resident for many years in the United States, she has recorded and produced her own LPs and CDs showing that her voice is as fine as ever. After the war, Sydney recorded for Decca and made some stereo LPs as late as 1959, with some recordings made live at Grosvenor House. Sydney Lipton's Band made its first BBC broadcast on 17th July 1933 and became a regular broadcaster thereon. An excerpt from Sydney's live late night BBC broadcast of 24th August, 1936 exists and although this rare recording from air is in poor condition, Sydney himself is heard giving the closing announcement- "You have been listening to Sydney Lipton and the Grosvenor House Band broadcasting to you from Grosvenor House, London. This tune is "THERE'S A RAINBOW ROUND MY SHOULDER" and I think in conclusion we'll have time for "BROADWAY MELODY". We all join in hoping you've enjoyed the programme. Goodnight everybody, goodnight". This historic piece fades out on "AU REVOIR (BUT NOT GOODBYE)" - a popular hit of 1936 - with Billy Munn's piano well to the fore. In the later 1930's, his band was featured on the continental commercial radio stations on programmes sponsored by Crosse and Blackwell. During his bandleading career, Sydney used three signature tunes: "I'LL SEE YOU IN MY DREAMS" (1933-1935); "JUST DANCE AND LEAVE THE MUSIC TO ME" (1936-1941) and his own composition "SWEET HARMONY" (1946 -1967). This latter title is a perfect description of Sydney Lipton's music.
[ London Lyrics Band ]
[ London Radio Dance Band ]
Since November 1925, Sidney Firman had been broadcasting with his six-piece Cavour Restaurant Dance Band on a regular basis. Then in January 1926 the BBC (then the British Broadcasting Company) made an arrangement with Firman that the members of his band would be separately contracted to the BBC instead of to him personally, at a total cost of 132 pounds per week to the Company. Sidney himself was engaged as conductor and violinist of the new London Radio Dance Band - the same group of musicians he had led at the Cavour Restaurant. This new arrangement came into effect on 8th February, 1926 and on 16th February the newly-named dance band made their first broadcast with a programme which included BAM BAM BAMMY SHORE, Rhythmic Paraphrase of NAILA Intermezzo, YOU FORGOT TO REMEMBER, WHAT DID I TELL YOU? and COLLEGIATE. Listener reaction was positive and the band quickly established itself as a broadcasting favourite. The original personnel included Wally Whilden (piano), Charles Knapp (drums), Pasquale Troise (banjo), Fred North (trombone), Jack Padbury (alto sax/clarinet), and Sidney leading on violin. Within weeks of their first transmission, Jack Pearce (tenor sax), Bert Hargest (trumpet) and Frank Darke (sousaphone) were added. On occasions guest vocalists such as Peter Bernard and Elsie Carlisle, who later established herself as a nationwide favourite with the Ambrose Orchestra, were featured. Both Eddie Sheldon and Sidney Nesbitt were contracted as resident singers for short periods of time and a later addition, Bert Bown (tenor sax), sang on record and probably on broadcasts too. Between Tuesday 7th and Thursday 16th of September 1926, the London Radio Dance Band made some broadcasts from the National Radio Exhibition at Olympia. On November 30th the band started a ten-week engagement at the Olympia Dance Hall in West Kensington playing six nights a week from 8pm till midnight, less 45 minutes for breaks and at matinee dances on Thursdays and Saturdays from 3pm till 6pm with a break of 15 minutes. During this time, regardless of the punishing schedule, the band continued to broadcast most days a week and sometimes broadcasting from the Olympia Dance Hall from 11pm until midnight. The BBC arranged a recording contract with the Columbia Graphaphone Company which agreed to make an annual payment of 250 pounds to the broadcasting company for the privilege of hiring their band - in addition to paying the musicians the usual sessions fees. The London Radio Dance Band first entered the Columbia studios on April 29th, 1926 but only took part in another eight recording sessions for that company in the next twenty two months. There was an additional visit to the Central Hall, Westminster on January 18th 1928 when they joined the Debroy Somers Band, The Kit-Kat Band, and the Piccadilly Revels Band to record four titles as a massed dance band. A week later (on the 26th) the finals of the Columbia Dancing Championship were held at the Albert Hall where the Radio Band performed separately and with the other three dance bands again as a massed dance band. Highlights of the evening were broadcast. The Radio Band's contracts were terminated in March 1928. The seeds had been sown when in November 1927 Percy Mathison Brooks took the BBC to court claiming that the Corporation (as the BBC had become) owed him 150 pounds as commission for procuring the band's engagement at the Olympia Dance Hall. According to Brooks, the engagement was a result of his introducing Sidney Firman to the General Manager of the Dance Hall and Firman had promised that Brooks would receive commission if an engagement was the result. The BBC denied liability and said that Firman was not acting as their agent or within the scope of his authority. The court decided that Firman was indeed authorised to enter into contract where the usual rate of commission was to be paid and found in favour of Brooks. In addition, there was apparent evidence that Sidney Firman had been receiving music publishers "plug" money for favouring their songs. The BBC were very much against such practice. The band made their final broadcast on March 10th 1928 and were replaced by Jack Payne's BBC Dance Orchestra. Sidney formed a new band while most members of the old Radio Band formed a co-operative and billed themselves as the "Original London Dance Band" which made one recording session for Edison Bell and took up residency at the Cosmos Club under Jack Padbury leadership.
Joe Loss studied violin at the Trinity College of Music and London College of Music but any thoughts of following a classical career were soon put aside when playing in the Chinese Cafe at the Tower, Blackpool he decided that he wanted to lead a band like Bertini, the legendary bandleader resident in the magnificent Tower Ballroom. His first attempt at bandleading was short lived and it wasn't until September 1930 when he took a band into the Astoria Ballroom, Charing Cross Road, London that he first tasted success and at the age of 21 he was the youngest leader in the business. In the following year he transferred to the classy Kit Cat Restaurant as second band in residence and stayed there until the Restaurant closed in June 1934. The Loss band returned to the Astoria, remaining there until March 1941 when the band went on tour around the theatres and ballrooms of Britain. Let's watch Joe Loss and his orchestra in 1937 playing Jack Butterworth, writing in the June 1939 issue of the British "Rhythm" magazine, listed: "the Band members at this time where; Joe Loss-Band Leader, Chick Henderson-Vocalist, Clem Stevens-Trumpet, Harry Letham-Trumpet, Bill Burton-Trumpet, Bill Boland-Trombone, Eddie Pratt-Alto Saxophone, Danny Miller- Alto Saxophone and accordion, Mickey Stewart-Clarinet and extra Sax, Harry Kahn-Piano and Reg Richman-Bass. (All photos from "Rhythm" magazine, June 1939) In December 1959 he started a five year residency at the popular Hammersmith Palais in London. He had a number of regular residencies such as seasons at Green's Playhouse in Glasgow, cruising on the QE2 from 1973 onwards, and in the 1970's he would welcome in the New Year at London's Hilton Hotel, broadcast on BBC Radio 2 throughout the United Kingdom. Joe was particularly proud that his was the first dance band to perform in the People's Republic of China. Joe Loss's recording career began in August 1933 on the Edison Bell Winner label, transferring twelve months later to Regal Zonophone, Octocross and Panachord before settling down with the EMI company in 1935 - an association which was to last for over forty years. The Edison Bell records show clearly that the band was setting a style of its own but those early sides were marred by the vocalising of Jimmy Messini. With the addition of Chick Henderson and Monte Rey the band was greatly strengthened. Later he featured the excellent vocal talents of Paula Green, Rose Brennan, and Larry Gretton amongst many others. His first million seller was his own version of "BEGIN THE BEGUINE" which featured singer Chick Henderson. It was recorded on 5th July 1939, appearing first on Regal-Zonophone MR-3098 and has been available in one form or another ever since. Other big sellers for Joe include "HONKY-TONK TRAIN BLUES" (1940), "THE MAIGRET THEME" (1963), "WHEELS CHA CHA" (1961), "MARCH OF THE MODS" (1964), and an LP called "Joe Loss plays Glenn Miller" (1969). One of Joe's mid-1950s bands, then resident at the Villa Marina on the Isle of Man, included such sidemen as:
In private correspondence Pete Warner (Tenor Sax) has recalled some information on the 1977 (into the '80s) band:
Joe Loss: frontman
Between 1961 and 1964, Joe had five UK chart hits in competition with the rock and roll of the day. Joe Loss made his broadcasting debut in 1934 and continued broadcasting on and off until his retirement. The first broadcast of his signature tune "LET'S DANCE AT THE MAKE BELIEVE BALLROOM" was on 30 January 1937. Two years later he scored a success with "IN THE MOOD" and adopted it as his signature tune which he continued to use for fifty years.
He was soon working as the musical director of the Anglo-Russian ballet at the Royal Festival Hall. Positions as film conductor, and pit orchestra leader in London's West End followed. From 1929 to 1932, Jack Leon and his Band recorded about 150 titles for the Piccadilly and related labels Octacross and Metropole. In June 1931, Al Bowlly recorded 12 songs with Leon's band. Leon went on to a fine musical career leading dance bands, conducting the London Symphony Orchestra for ballet,, conducting the Guildhall Orchestra for folk dancing in Hyde Park, and for several years conducting two separate bands daily at the Prince Of Wales Theatre. Jack Leon had quite a good swing band along the South Coast in the late 1950's. Mr. Keith Horner recalls that Archie Horn sat in the reeds section. The band's music was strongly influenced by famed American bandleader Stan Kenton who, over the years, presented Lewis with many Kenton orchestra charts arranged by such men as Gerry Mulligan, Pete Rugulo, and Bill Holman, although the Lewis band also featured the charts of its own pianist, Ken Thorne. All during 1947-'56, the band was considered to be one of the best in all England, recording for the Parlophone, Esquire, Decca and Phillips labels. Actress Francesca Shashkova, has noted (in private correspondence) that Irma Logan was singing with the band in the late 1950s when they toured with singer Johnny Ray and Bill Haley's group. Logan was still singing with the band in 1958 when they appeared at London's Gaumont theatre, with guest stars Max Geldray, and the American singing group 'The Hi-Lo's'. In 1959, Lewis retired from active playing, although he has since occasionally led some bands. In 1989, Lewis recorded a session featuring West Coast All-Stars playing Bill Holman arrangements, and again on several other dates in the 1990's for the Candid label. Famed Trumpeter Ron Simmonds, has recalled:
Collective Personnel:
TRIVIA: Jacky Jennings was Peter Coleman's wife. Her mother was dropped by parachute into occupied France during the war as a liaison for the Resistance movement. TRIVIA: Kathy Stobart, for many years now featured tenor sax with Humphrey Lyttelton, was Bert Courtley's wife. Bert died of alcoholic poisoning in 1970, at the age of 40, after drinking great amounts of a cough cure containing cocaine. He was a brilliant trumpet player and a dear friend of mine. Vic Lewis had a later big band in 1951 with the following line-up:
In mid-1953, the Vic Lewis band had:
Interesting sidenote about the Vic Lewis band. On March 27, 2002, famed actor Dudley Moore died at his home in New Jersey, USA, as a result of Supranuclear palsy, a rare brain degenerative disorder. He is well recalled for his roles in the films 10, and Arthur, but few people now recall that Moore began his career as a musician, not as an actor. He was born and raised in the London suburb of Dagenham, and developed a love of music as a child. He attend the prestigious Guildhall School of Music and later won a scholarship to Oxford's Magdalen College. After receiving two degrees ( Oxford University (B.Mus and B.A.(Music)), he spent a couple of years working as a musician, playing in Jazz ensembles. Moore then joined the Vic Lewis Orchestra (pianist) and toured America. In 1959, he both composed the incidental music for "Sergeant Musgrave's Dance" and "One Way Pendulum", and also joined the Johnny Dankworth band (also as pianist). In 1960 he left Johnny Dankworth and, for the Edinburgh Festival, he contributed music for a late night four-man revue called "Beyond the Fringe". Also in 1960, he contributed some incidental music for productions at the Royal Court Theatre, and was also playing Jazz at Sunday night performances at the Marquee Club. In 1961, Moore was still writing, orchestrating, playing and conducting for advertising jingles. On February 8, 1961, he even played Jazz piano, in a concert at the Festival Hall where he played his own and other works. Peter Warner (tenor sax) also has some memories of "...the Vic Lewis band personnel for about 6 months in 1950, when we toured U S bases in Germany and also a prestigious tour of all the towns in Switzerland."
The line-up that he recalls is:
Currently (Oct. 2006), Vic Lewis is still with us, living in Mill Hill (London) As a "Jazz or Swing" musician, Mario was an anomaly inasmuch as the Harp rarely appears on the Jazz scene. In the U.S.A., perhaps the best known harpist is Adele Girard, who played with her husband, clarinetist Joe Marsala and his bands .(John Chilton, in his 'Who's Who of Jazz', has pointed out that Joe Marsala would occasionally use the pseudonym of Arpeggio Glissandi.) Of course there was also "Harpo" Marx, who while he didn't play 'Jazz', did play 'Pop" music. Other Harpists "active" on the 1930s English scene included Marie Korchinska, and Sidonie Goossens, wife of conductor Hyam Greenbaum. Sidonie, principal harpist with the BBC Symphony Orchestra for fifty years, had recorded with Jack Hylton in 1936 ("Sweet Sue") and had played with Spike Hughes, Carroll Gibbons, Geraldo, and others (including - I think - Ronnie Scott's band.) Nearly every British Jazz musican of quality (and maybe a few who just about hung in there! ) has played with "Humph" at one time or another. In the late 1950s he swung away from his perceived restrictions of New Orleans music and, coming under the direct influence of Buck Clayton, (who played and recorded with the band) entered fully into the "mainstream". He employed the creative altoist Bruce Turner (whose influences included both Hodges and Konitz/Tristano), which led to disgruntled fans boo-ing and almost rioting at concerts, producing idiotic signs which said such things as "Go Home Dirty Be-Bopper"!! Never one to take too much notice of such ridiculous criticism ,his bands became ever bigger! Although now (2003) in his 80s he still plays regularly but with smaller groups. Unusual for a Jazz musician, he is a full-blown (sic) member of the British Aristocracy: schooled at Eton College and an Officer in the Grenadier Guards with "titled" relatives in abundance. He has written many hilarious and informative books about his career and about Jazz in general. They include "I Play As I Please" (1954), "Second Chorus" (1958) and "Take It From the Top" (1975). Just a few of the musicians who owe more than a little to "Humph" include saxists TONY COE, JIMMY SKIDMORE, KATHY STOBART, JOHN SURMAN and
TONY ROBERTS, pianists STAN GREIG, MIKE PYNE and MARTIN LITTON, trombonists JOHN PICARD,CHRIS PYNE and ROY WILLIAMS. The list goes
on.......!
[ Jimmy Lequime and the Grand Hotel Orch. ], (ca, 1926)
He began his career playing background music at various 'silent films' cinemas. However, with the arrival of "Talkies", work in this area dried up. Finding the musical opportunities very limited he went back to England where he led several small ensembles at various 'Lyons Corner Houses'. Loban would go on to lead a number of dance bands over the years. One notable example was in 1930 when he led the 'Savoy Opheans' band on tour. Here are some interesting photos, one of Benny Loban and The Savoy Orpheans, and here's a Palace Theatre (Plymouth) Flyer advertising the band's appearance on May 26, 1933 Here's still another interesting photo of the era showing the Benny Loban and His Music Weavers orchestra taken during a performance in the BBC radio studios (year unknown). In early 1931 Benny Loban joined the Debroy Somers band, replacing Debroy's brother Maurice. Maurice meanwhile had joined the Jack Hylton band and stayed with Jack till early 1936. Contrary to the Rust/Forbes discography, the tour dates listed below suggest Benny Loban did not stay permanently with Debroy Somers after 1932. Benny's own scrap book suggests that during the period from 1933 - 1937 he played the following places prior to his engagement at the Royal Bath Hotel in Bournemouth: West End Dance Hall in Birmingham, Broadway Theatre in Dundee, Scotland, Hippodrome in Birmingham, Garden Palace in Chelsea, Rougemont in Exeter, Hippodrome in Lewisham, Alhambra Theatre in Glasgow and Britannia Pier in Yarmouth as well as engagements in Leeds and Aye, Scotland. One may imagine just how popular Benny Loban was during this period when his photograph was used to sell sheet music, as in the copy of "What'll You Do", a tune composed by Chester Cohn and Ned Miller. From 1938-40, Loban led the resident band at the Royal Bath Hotel in Bournemouth, where he frequently broadcast with such notables as Stanley Holloway, Tommy Handly, Ted Ray and Bebe Daniels. From 1940-'45. he headed the band at the prestigious Palais Ballroom in Glasgow. Benny was one of four bands invited to broadcast on VE Day, near the end of World War II. Following the end of WW II and the decline of the dance bands, Benny was invited to be musical director of a number of stage musicals such as "Waltz Time", "The Girl Friend" and others. In 1952, Benny returned to Canada where he settled back in his home town of Winnipeg. He was involved in some of the very limited musical activity there but eventually established himself in the Investment Real Estate business which he actively pursued until shortly before his death. He died of a stroke on March 7, 1993 while visiting his son in Toronto. The above information on Benny Loban was gleaned from private correspondence with Mr. Gerald Loban, son of Benny Loban, and the BigBands Database Plus thanks Gerald Loban for permission to reproduce the wonderful photoographs.
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"Let's Dance"
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eMail/Webmaster: [ mlp@nfo.net ] murray pfeffer
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